Ebben a topikban a vívás harcművészeti aspektusait szeretnénk megvitatni. Elsősorban a történelmi európai vívással, ezen belül szablyavívással szeretnénk foglalkozni, de minden más vívás képviselője is szívesen látott vendég a topikban.
Kimondottan igaza van Holzmannak, amikor ezt írja:
"These blades, historically, are much more flexible than the typical hema-crowbar, as well."
Számomra ez akkor derült ki, amikor lemértük Németh Árpád párbajkardjainak statikus hajlékonyságát.
"Egy másik sportpenge hajlékonysága (a markolatnál eltört V-alakú, ukrán penge): 1,5 kg szobamérlegen (+-0,5 kg-os pontosság). Utána egy konyhamérlegen is el lett végezve a mérés: 1,99-2,00 kg (+-1-2g). Ez az összehasonlítás azért fontos, mert Németh Árpádnál csak szobamérlegen lett lemérve a kardok hajlékonysága. [1] Több - párbaj gyakorlására szolgáló - vívókard statikus hajlékonysága:
- legvastagabb pengével rendelkező vívókard: ......... 3,7 kg.
Parise Model 1 sportkard: ...................................... 2,1 kg
Az adatokból jól látszik, hogy korabeli - XIX. sz. vége, XX. sz. első évtizedei - vívópengék nem voltak túlságosan merevek, a gyűjteményben található legvastagabb penge statikus hajlékonysága sem éri el a 4 kg-t, miközben a barantás vívóeszközön mért érték ennek a duplája (8-9 kg). Ebből ki lehet következtetni a HEMA-szablyákkal szembeni elvárásokat."
"Matt Easton Cold Steel is explicitly described at the start as for 'the light sabre' - in other words the Italian Parise style fencing sabre. Cold Steel is not a military manual in the same sense that Hutton's other manuals are. Cold Steel is about trying to make sabre fencing more fun and 'varied', as Hutton puts it. Skip forward to 1897 and Hutton has you grappling with Afghans, pommeling them in the face. It's related, but rather different. As I have shown above, in other works Hutton is explicit about using a practice sword - the regulation 1864 - which corresponds to the weapon a soldier would use in the field.
Matt Easton Matt Easton And for the record, in 1896 Hutton was so annoyed by Masiello's 1895 method that he published a whole pamphlet to criticize it. He may have been a fan of early Parise, but he certainly was not a fan of Masiello/Radaelli.
Joe Dedrick Matt Easton Is it me or is it a tradtion for english masters to diss on others especially Italians
Matt Easton Matt Easton Opinions were divided in this period between the French and Italian schools. Most Brits followed the French, but there was a brief period of popularity for Italian. Then it swung back to French again and then everything became sport fencing.
Matt Easton Matt Easton Also for the record ;) Hutton was a student of Henry Angelo since teenage years and that was the strongest influence on his earlier sabre material. Together with George Chapman. I don't think he was trying particularly hard to emulate Parise - rather it was fashionable and he was interested with Cold Steel in trying to create sport sabre fencing. With Camille Prevost he achieved this and was instrumental in creating sport sabre for the Olympics.
Jordan Williams Jordan Williams Matt Easton your comments are much appreciated! Especially with the book excerpt from his earlier work.
Matt Easton Matt Easton Regarding original British practice sabres, there was a lot of variety. Here is an article where I weighed and measured a bunch from my collection. Note though that the Masiello pattern (1895) is actually heavier than any of the 1864 patterns LOL The 1864 patterns got up to 820g while the Masiello type is 830g.... https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/1864-pattern-practice...
1864 Pattern Practice Sword Or Gymnasium Sabre ANTIQUE-SWORDS.CO.UK
Matt Easton Matt Easton Christoph Amberger's article linked above needs eradicating from the internet. It is deliberately misinforming, I presume to justify the weights of modern sport sabres (I have a Wilkinson one here that weighs 380g...). The 1796 light cav sabre is normally around 800-900g, not the 570g he quotes and the 1895 practice sabre is usually over 800g, not the 620g he quotes. He has either searched for the lightest conceivable examples he could find, which are complete outliers, or he got his numbers wrong.
Patrick Nicholas Patrick Nicholas Matt Easton good to know: I'd heard of 1796s more in the 750-800 range.
Matt Easton Matt Easton Most are over 800g and some are nearly 1000g.
How Much Do 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabres Weigh
Matt Easton Matt Easton A final comment before I turn in for the night: I am a fan of Hutton's works, but not really Cold Steel so much. I am not against using lighter sabres for practice and we've been discussing getting some ~700g sabres so we can focus on some particular s…"
"Hutton in his work "Cold Steel" reccomended a lighter sabre instead of the "cumbersome weapons" in vogue in England. Does anyone know specifically what models or styles he was referring to in either case, or if he ever made comment on weight/length? <CS 2. oldala, utána The Parts of the Sabre>
Jordan Williams
Juste Le Wojax what would the English school saber be?
I've had some Austrian and "Prussian style" gymnasium sabres with weights around 750 - 800 grams. Quite nimble
Peter Pataki
The 1864 pattern gymnasium sabre would have been in widespread use for army training when Cold Steel came out.
Chris Holzman
He is talking about the typical Italian sabre of the era, which is what was in primary use on the continent at the time. 88cm long 20mm blade tapering to a 10mm point, pob somewhere between 7-11cm from the guard. Bare blades are usually in the 325-350g range, with a total weight somewhere between 720-780g depending on how big of a guard we're talking. These blades, historically, are much more flexible than the typical hema-crowbar, as well.
The Italian school he's making reference to is that of Parise, which was the official method of the Italian army at the time (though only in name - the Italian cavalry refused to adopt it, keeping to the Radaellian method, and Parise himself hired two of Radaelli's top assistants as his own assistants when his school became official in 1884).
Chris Holzman
Or, anyway, that's what the military tournament regs were. The typical fencing sabres of the era in Italy and elsewhere on the
continent ranged from 15-20mm blades, and total weight of around 600-780g or so, again, depending on how much guard we're talking.
Radaelli specd an 89cm long 350g blade and a 370g hilt (total of 720g) - those tend to balance about 10-11cm from the guard.
Chris Holzman
This is, of course, why I chuckle so much when people talk about "Hutton sabres" - because he's really giving people nothing to work with, and if they don't know the fencing history, they're gonna be lost.
Chris Holzman
Chris Holzman When I comment about how much guard we’re talking, here is a great example. The decorative reinforcer plate here adds 40g of unnecessary weight to an already robust guard on this pre-1860 Hoppe cavalry trainer. Blade is 350g, and total weight is 772g. It’s much handier feeling at 730g with the extra plate removed.
Patrick Nicholas
Basically just get an Italian dueling sabre, 750 grams or lighter. Also, Hutton is just watered down Parise.
Jeff Richardson
Huuton is Angelo..... with a bunch of Italian influence. His core starter drills are taken straight from Angelo.
Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger it seems to me that a method that needs a lighter gymnasium saber to work isnae going to work at all with a fighting-weight live blade. I could be wrong...
Patrick Nicholas
Jim Bensinger think of it this way: bokken weigh less than a shinken. Singlesticks weight less than basket hilts.
Lighter training weapon means more reps with good form. Also, means more intense bouting, and more varied actions in bouting. Modern fencing proves it can go to far, but overall, a lighter than real trainer is really useful.
Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger Patrick but too often it encourages technique that you absolutely cannot duplicate with a real sword (which should be dealt with in ruleset and training, I know...)-all trainers for sparring should and will be lighter than the real thing, but if you need a super special extra light trainer then summat’s amiss
Patrick Nicholas
Patrick Nicholas Jim Bensinger I'd agree: this is mostly a matter of degrees, is, light enough to work, heavy enough to be real.
Another side note, a sharp original 1796 lc weights around 750 iirc, so the hema kg plus clunkers are still off the mark ;)
Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger Patrick my Prussian arty saber is 2lbs dead on
Patrick Nicholas
Patrick Nicholas My 16/17th cen Hungary is right about 780g, with more hilt it would likely be about 2lbs. That's where I like my sharp.
Matt Easton
Matt Easton Patrick Nicholas the numbers in the article you linked are an absolute mess.
How Much Do 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabres Weigh
ANTIQUE-SWORDS.CO.UK
Matt Easton
Matt Easton "Hutton is x, y, z". Come on peeps. This guy was making manuals from 1862 until 1897! Cold Steel is *for the light sabre*. His other manuals are for the military sabre. Please say "Cold Steel" rather than "Hutton".
Luka Pavlič
Luka Pavlič Matt Easton Was waiting for that. Painting all of Hutton with a Cold Steel brush gives me the heeby jeebies.
Matt Easton
Matt Easton Here is what Hutton specifically said in 1867, in his military manual 'Cavalry Swordsmanship' (he released two military manuals that year) -
A képen a következők lehetnek: szöveg, amely valószínűleg így szól: „The dragoon's ought, during his of practice independent practice I mean-to be represented a weapon in weight, length, shape nearly to the real one as possible. The weapon allude to is the steel practice (those made by Wilkinson the durable). weapon objected account of its expense; matter the cost of few sword blades by the judicious use of them, efficiency of cavalry soldier materially increased to teach cleverly use sword, his main and trustworthy weapon-to make him as thoroughly good "sabreur' the physical peculiarities is to vastly increase confidence in his own powers, and consequently his personal courage.”"
Leírás (Commons): "The short version of the Ottoman kilij sometimes known as pala, with deeply curved wide blade and ‘T’ spine, it was in use from the early 17 C. for more than 300 years well into the 20th C. The hilt of classical form is made of brass cross guard and horn grips with bulbous pommel and brass grip strap. The original wood scabbard is covered with leather and has spiral brass stitching, mounted with chased brass locket and chape, 27 inch blade, 33 inches total."
"Guys and girls, look at this monster I found on a trip to Bratislava two weeks ago before the borders were shut down. Ridiculous, to say the least :D The hilt is that of a standard Austrian 1850 pattern cavalry officer's sabre."
Szóval, egy egyértelműen török penge + osztrák 1850M markolat.
Talán ezt a fajta török szablyatípust hívták palanak? Érdekes törés a penge ívéveb, T alakú fok, hosszú fokél.
Bob Spracklin I fenced sport sabre for 20 years before it became electrified and I agree that there were problems much as you describe. However, you are ignoring a critical element that has been lost.
The side judges were expected to look for hits, but especially for flat hits and reject them. You were expected to observe the orientation of the guard to make this determination. You are right - that is difficult. But along came the electric sabre and the "solution" was to ignore the cut and allow all blade contact. And along came the slightly stiffer S2000 blade to make it harder to flick to the electric target. But even with a slightly stiffer blade, you have people flicking their blade sideways around parries. The cut-out timing has become a game to be played, not a real solution. The other unfortunate development that has appeared is that referees are calling the attack (giving priority) based on “showing initiative” with forward motion. (That is a quote from an FIE licenced judge). Calling an action an attack before the fencer begins to extend their blade has become the norm. This runs counter to the rules and to almost a century of sport fencing conventions (and to the historic teaching of swordplay).
Sabre fencing has become foremost a game with little sense of the actual use of a sword, contrary to what was conceived at the first few Olympics.
BH Simpson BH Simpson Bob Spracklin All of what you describe happens to some extent. But I have no nostalgia for visual sabre. Most corner judges struggled to watch both the orientation of my guard/blade AND the opponent's target area. I make a stop cut to the opponent's preparation and one judge goes 'no' and the other one 'abstains' because he was too slow on his feet to keep up with my retreat... And the ref decides against me. And I'm deciding the only way to win is to whack hard. And it works. That is not, to me, good sabre. And people who like to bash without technique are an issue in all sword-based sports. As for counting any blade contact as valid... It's possible but it just doesn't work out that way because cutting with edge is more efficient than with the flat. If you're trying to hit with the flat it is slow and awkward and easily parried. It's also not how top-end sport fencers train or fence. I've had a couple of private lessons with Max Hartung from the German national sabre team and all actions are based on actions with the edge. The S2000 blade was partly about reducing the whip as much as the excessive flex that could lead to more dangerous breakages during thrust actions. It is for this reason that a new rule kicks in this year that competition sabre blades need to be maraging steel (bringing sabre in to line with the other weapons).
I don't know of any fencer who seriously thinks they can game the 4-15ms cut-out after blades or guard contact (don't confuse the anti-whip-around lock out with the post-hit to target lock-out after 170ms - that's a different period of lock-out. And is a strike to target that hits with a bent blade necessarily invalid? If I cut down and the opponent parries my blade still bends around the impact laterally. If my cut downwards continues and finds the opponent's wrist in this curving shape it is still a cut with the edge. If such an impact lands outside of the whip-around cut off and before the opponent can get in a riposte then it is, to my mind, a valid hit in all schools of sabre, sport or otherwise, because sabre blades do flex where they become thin and not all parries are perfect or fast enough. The 'showing initiative' argument I've never heard and doesn't appear in the rule book - but then the rule book is only a tool to help sport sabre be all that it can be (trying to do sabre by finding 'hacks' in the rules is an attempt to 'game' the system, and the top FIE referees are watchful of that sort of thing - this is what usually leads to rule changes). I had a long back and forth with Australia's top FIE-rated sabre referee about the arm extension thing. It is still considered best practice but there is a point where simply stiffly extending the arm and moving forward is no guarantee of priority. Cumulative acceleration gives more force to an attack and if it is timed right the blade will be travelling faster than that of the fencer who is simply moving a static blade towards the opponent by leg motion alone. I follow the Hungarian school of sport sabre and the arm extension is key, but not in a way where the extension is finished before the footwork. The way I have learnt sabre, as far as I can tell, totally maintains the traditions of the last 200 years of sabre teaching (in a simulated form, I admit, and only on my good days).
As for fencing being foremostly a game... it's all a game, otherwise people get badly dead. Ultimately I know I won't convince you that Olympic sabre has continuity with 19th and early 20th century expressions. To me, in its best examples it is a fine inheritor - but on its bad days it probably does all that you say and more - but then the same could be said of HEMA sabre as well.
R Rob MacBeathean The biggest problem with Modern Sabre is an inability to direct a bout properly. In Sabre, the validity of the hit is judged by the referee (used to be director). Before electric, most paid close attention to a flat hit or one "Over o through steel". If your blade flexed once it hit a bellguard to arrive, it was thrown out. The WORST offense is the on-going European preference of calling a forward motion of the body an attack. An attack is actually when the target is threatened by the blade. If you're rushing in without extending, you are simply moving your body closer to the other guy's blade. I learned to direct from a guy that used to be the head of US directors, Andy Shaw, back in the Westside LA days. Unless you have a rated director, you're probably going to have a bad one. Derrick Cotton (former world placed foilist, multiple time Olympic director) used to start his seminars by asking how many had been totally screwed out of points at National Competitions by bad directors. EVERYONE raised heir hands. He nailed them with, "You're all wrong. You're all trying to force the directors to allow the kind of bad directing you see at every open floor in the world. The directors have been tested and accredited. If you have a problem, YOU need to fix it.". The only way to fix it is teach directing from day one somebody starts fencing. Those inside the world often are unsure and shy away. In 20 years of teaching I never told students there was an aversion to it. They ALL became good directors that took no BS from people trying to game the directors.
Ui.: A Military & Classical Sabre (MCS) FB-csoport: február végén (2020) 4320+ tagja volt.
Tim Green Where did you get the rules for Olympic fencing Matt? I've been trying to find such things for a while now but with no luck. Do you also have the rules for Olympic Single Stick?
Matt Easton Hi Tim, there is a massive thread about this subject on the Schola Forum - I just went and pulled them out of that.
SCHOLA GLADIATORIA FORUM • View topic - Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ... [1]
Tim Green Thank you kindly
Jim Bensinger coating the blade so only the edge is exposed is doable, but fragile-witness the “shokknife” for shortblade training-body of the blade is coated, edge feels like electric fence (and quite a bit like being cut) when it’s turned on. They’re a wee bit fragile though, and that would be exacerbated with saber
BH Simpson Matt Easton I think (as in, I heard a story) it was experimented with but the coating kept wearing off through contact between blades, with the blades simply returning to their old nature (and if one blade was more worn than the other that fencer had an advantage). There was also an experiment with a wire down the cutting edge, but this simply broke after a few edge meetings... and so back to the drawing board. People are still trying, but so far nothing survives first contact with the enemy.
BH Simpson So... I thought I would offer my view point on some of what cropped up in the comments below this post. It is the view-point of a die-hard sport fencer who has been involved in the sport since the age of 13 and pretty much non-stop for over three decades.
A DEFENCE OF SPORT SABRE (or POINT - CONTRE-POINTE) 'Car Aerial' : sport sabre blades are thin and highly flexible for a reason. Safety in a sport that is heavily promoted as being 'for the whole family from 6yrs and up' is always going to be a high priority. The flexible blade that does not shatter on impact (with a new rule surrounding the forging of sabre blades coming into effect soon) is a good thing. Fencing is a very safe sport with surprisingly few grievous or fatal injuries. This is the result of continual improvements in safety equipment, rules, and oversight by a globe-spanning governing body: that awful FIE. Other groups to benefit from this evolving improvement in fencing technology include.... HEMA. How many people in this group own equipment either directly from sport fencing suppliers (e.g. Leon Paul) or have equipment that uses designs, technology and materials developed by traditional sport-fencing equipment suppliers? It seems somewhat rude to piss on sport-fencing and then benefit from all the safety equipment that has come from those makers of 'car aerials'. Surely the quest for a safer, less painful sabre-ing experience is also what has lead to the development of sparring replicas made of weighted plastic (as well as the reduced need to replace one's blade so often). I have no beef with plastic sabres and understand the utility... but if you're okay with a plastic sabre what's wrong with a car antenna sabre? Alternatively, in some parts of the world (Sri Lanka) there are swords so floppy they work more like whips. If someone from a HEMA sabre group were to start posting on an urumi-fanciers facebook page about how their floppy swords were laughable it might look somewhat petty - possibly it might even look like the worst sort of intolerance.
...and then there's the fact that pretty much all sabres bend to some degree - it's considered to be a sign of quality and once formed part of the British Sword Proof test. In the world of sport fencing all sabre blades still must conform to a minimum and maximum standard of rigidity/flexibility. Can the same be said of every HEMA sabre sword on the market? Who knows. 'Whip-around' : very early into the development of the equipment for electric sabre the whip-around problem was recognised... and the sabre box was developed with a cut-out to stop whip-around from registering as valid. When the sabre blades are in contact there is a tiny window for the hit to register (0-4ms) with the idea that the parry wasn't formed correctly or fast enough. From 4ms-15ms after the blade/guard contact the box will not register a hit (the estimated window for the 'whip-around effect'). After 15ms from the blade contact the blades will conduct again and a further contact between blade and conductive surface (lasting longer than 0.1ms) will be regarded as a valid 'remise'.
Why the myth continues that 'whip-around' is a problem in sport sabre I don't know. The electrical system is better at eliminating this issue than human observers. ...which leads to the next point...
BH Simpson
'Electric Sabre ruined Sport Sabre' : I have fenced with both at competition level and it is so not true. 'Visual sabre' with corner judges and human error sucked, big time. And it hurt.
Non-electric sabre involved having corner judges whose job it was to look for hits on your opponent's target area (which is why the signal system first adopted for electric sport fencing had valid hits light up on the opponent's end. These days, to make it more visually clear for spectators, the signals have now switched around: I make a valid hit, my side of the box lights up). Corner judges were human and often didn't see little blade actions like wrist cuts or stop-hits. This meant that most hits were not fine examples of control and timing but big sweeping motions designed to impress the corner judges... and leave an obvious crease on the opponent's jacket. Hits were hard and the resultant bruises and welts were nasty (this was pre-kevlar - just heavy cotton drill clothing for the most part). Because of this sabre developed a reputation as being a brutal, uncultured weapon (an image not helped by the late allowance of women to compete in the weapon). This reputational damage still persists. Even after the adoption of the (initially) very expensive electric sabre equipment, old school sabreurs still hit like they were trying to scythe the opponent in two. These days electric sabre makes fine blade actions stand out and be counted and women's sabre is a thing.
'In sport sabre ou can score hits with the flat of the blade, and that's not true sabre.' : One has to ask of HEMA sabre, "How do you know every hit made is properly with the cutting edge at all times?" Obviously you can't know that precisely in either sport sabre or HEMA sabre. Scoring hits with either system has an idea of validity based on assumptions about technique and best practice. In sport sabre the rules around phrasing and priority try to make up for this deficiency (the cutting edge must 'threaten' the opponent's target - something that can be judged by the attitude of the guard) while basics of human anatomy tend to contribute as well (when gripping a sabre trying to 'slap' with the side of the blade is actually quite physically awkward and slow considering that the cutting edge naturally lines up with the hand and arm being extended forward in a straight line). In both HEMA sabre and sport sabre the fencer who can properly use the cutting edge to do actions of attack and defence will always be more successful against the fencer who presents the flat of the blade. Experienced sport fencers and practiced HEMA fencers all know this, so why this idea persists that sport fencers flail at the opponent without technique I don't know. It should also be pointed out that HEMA sabre regularly works in old methods of sword play that involve pommeling, grappling, and general non-cutting attacks with the weapon. It seems a double standard to say that when HEMA fencers smack the opponent in the head area with the guard it is realism, but when a sport fencer very occasionally scores a hit by accidentally dragging the blade across target it is just not real sabre. If anyone drags a sharp blade across a surface, even if it's mostly the flat of the blade in contact, the chances of this resulting in a cut are pretty high (this I know from working in professional kitchens). Ultimately it is nearly impossible to say if such-and-such a sword stroke would result in a cut or not because humans are squishy and blades (at least in olden times) are sharp. Hit someone with the flat of a blade and then do a draw cut as recovery and you're pretty much guaranteed to cut something.
Maybe one day technology will give the certainty we all dream of... but until then...
'The FIE is evil and forces sport sabre to do strange things' : Actually that's the Olympic Games Committee who want the most coverage friendly sports they can get so that ratings and sponsorship deals will flow in from all directions. The FIE is not a purely profit driven organisation and generally have the best interests of fencing at heart - they are very much about promoting the sport with a focus on inclusiveness. They welcome wheelchair fencing, light sabre fencing, and even give away equipment in all corners of the globe, such as Papua New Guinea, for example. Any thing to get more people involved. I think the general opinion of the FIE that most people in HEMA circles seem to hold is not a fair or balanced view. They do good stuff too, and all in the name of keeping fencing as relevant to as many people as possible.
...and so on and so forth. Which is just my view of things. To which some people might still say 'car antenna', to which I can only say that such negativity does not do the image of HEMA sabre any favours. I'm in this group and contributing as well as I can to the pool of knowledge because I enjoy doing sabre. I'm hoping that that is the reason most everyone else is here too.
____________________________
1. Masszívan gyűjtögettük a korabeli adatokat (vívókardok paramétereit, versenyszabályokat stb.).
Kellemesen bemutatja az AA (2:39), teljesen szokványos. Aztán a spanyol VA (3:05), itt szintén semmi meglepőt nem tapasztal egy grundvívó, nem túl széles, mint a Radaelli-s olasz, inkább kellemes modern VA (1,5 talpnyi).
Szokványos AA előre VA, ami számomra érdekes volt AA hátra VA. Kimondottan használható gyakorlat!
Érdekes 3-ik állás (positiones?): fél keresztlépés hátra.
4-ik pedig maga a kitörés (csupán 3 talpnyi, szóval egy kellemes tankitörés). Izgalmas megfigyelés: 3 -> 4.
(Erről a grundvívó könyvben is van szó, 76. és 157. o.) Természetesen soha nem hallottam erről a spanyol szerzőről...
Dabóczi "1932-től az ötvenes évek végéig versenyszerűen vívott. (Későbbi sport-témájú alkotásai közül kiemelkedik dr. Gerentsér László,5 valamint Italo Santelli síremléke.)"
"Pénteken délelőtt avatták fel a Kerepesi temetőben nyugvó, olasz származású — 1896-tól 1945-ben bekövetkezett haláláig — hazánkban működő Santelli haló vívómester profilképét ábrázoló. Dabóczi Mihály szobrászművész alkotta bronz domborművet. „Emléke él, állja a végtelen évek hosszú sorát, s a rohanó időt” — idézi a költő verssorát a Magyar Vívó Szövetség és Santelli Italo régi tanítványai baráti körének meghívója. Abban a reményben, hogy a citátum igazát sokkal többen fogják jelenlétükkel alátámasztani a háromszáz szétküldött meghívó címzettjei közül. Igaz, az a félszáz tisztelgő — több híres mester, neves női és férfi vívóbajnok — még látta, ismerte őt. Sok közülük tanítványa is volt a mesterek mesterének, valaha vívott abban a roppant cinteremben, ahol, többek között Garay János, Gombos Sándor, Kabos Endre, Mészáros Ervin, Petschauer Attila, Tóth Péter, egy időben Posta Sándor is asszózott. A budapesti nemzetközi kardversenyek előtt pedig a külföld bajnokai: németek, hollandok, franciák, angolok igyekeztek „akklimatizálódni”. És ott készült a versenyre az akkori legerősebb vetélytárs, az olasz élgárda; ellenük hosszú évtizedeken át harcoltunk sikerrel a tőlük átvett Radaelli-rendszerű vívóstílus magyar vérmérséklethez igazított, ma már „klasszikus”-nak említett változatával. A Santelll-teremnek különös, izgalmas varázsa volt: lüktetett, pezsgett, zajlott az élet benne. Ott nemcsak a fegyverforgatást tanulták és gyakorolták, a tiszta amatőrsport, s a fair play illemszabályait is igyekeztek átvenni a Maestrótól és a világversenyek izzó légkörében edzett, sikert, de balsikert is elviselni képes nagyoktól a fiatalok, akik közül, ha szorgalmukkal, magatartásukkal rászolgáltak és Santelli meglátta bennük a kardratermettséget, „grátisz” tanítványai sorába léphettek elő...
És ott edzett, nevelkedett Gerevich Aladár, a Santelli-műhely remeke, kimagasló képviselője. Egyedülálló sikereit 21 olimpiai és világ- bajnoki (egyéni és csapat aranyérem bizonyítja. Csodás pengeművészetét, tökéletességig csiszolt technikáját éppoly nehéz lenne szavakba foglalni, ahogy Ady verseit sem adhatja vissza semmiféle átültetés, a maga eredeti szépségében.
Most, a Kerepesi temetőben. mestere bronzveretű profilja mellett, érthetően neki jutott a megtisztelő szerep, hogy méltassa Santelli Italo „tekintélyt és szuggesztív erőt sugárzó egyéniségét”, valamikori versenyzői nagyságát — Santelli az 1896. évi budapesti nemzetközi vivőtalálkozón, a mesterek versenyében „úgy nyert, ahogy akart” —, majd fél évszázados itteni működését, pedagógiai kiválóságát. Szavai után a körülállókkal együtt egyperces csenddel áldoztak a nagy Maestro emlékének, aztán a baráti kéréseknek engedve, Dabóczi Mihály — Santelli, a maga kedves humorával Michelangelo de Transsylvaniae-nak nevezte —, ízes székely modorában, kedves, kötetlen formában elmesélte a 35x35 cm nagyságú dombormű elkészítésének ötletét és módját. (A domborművet ugyancsak az általa, még 1935-ben készült Santelli-érmek alapján mintázta a művész.)
Jóval a dombormű avatása előtt, már láttam Dabóczi Ybl Miklós téri műtermében a bronzportrét. Kíváncsi voltam, milyen indíttatásból született az meg. Leültünk a faragott kisplasztikák alá, a faragatlan, apró székekre, és ő mesélt küzdelmes ifjúságáról és — a Maestroról.
— Amikor 1929-ben Marosvásárhelyről nagy nehezen végre Budapestre jöhettem, és egyik öcsém is felkerült, teljesen magunkra voltunk utalva. Többször nem ettünk, mint ahányszor ettünk. Egyetlen szerencsénk volt, hogy a székely kollégiumban lakhattunk. Vállaltunk mindent. csali munkánk legyen; teniszütők húrozását, sírkövek faragását, szobafestést, hólapátolást. Aztán lassan elfészkelödtünk, megindultunk a tanulás ösvényén. Mikor már valahogy megkapaszkodtam, megjött Erdélyből Szabó Laci jóbarátom. Vele együtt tanultam Marosvásárhelyt vívni. Szabó első perctől kezdve élethivatásának érezte a vívást. Teleki Domokos volt az ottani sportklub elnöke: gyakran járt Pestre Santellihoz. Kérésére a Maestro elvállalta barátom ingyenes oktatását, mesterré képzését, én meg helyet teremtettem neki a kollégiumban, éjszaka ő is húzhatta a Straub-ütőket. Fél év múlva egy másik barátom, Csiszár Lajos került föl Erdélyből. Laci és Lajos az egész napot a vívóteremben töltötték, a Maestro nagyon megszerette őket. Tőlük hallotta, mennyire vágynék újra vívogatni. Üzent és mentem. Mintha hazamennék. Ingyen tanított, szekrényt kaptam felszerelésemnek és úgy foglalkozott velem, hogy két év múlva már a főiskolai vivőbajnokságok döntőjébe verekedtem magam, nemsokára tőrben, kardban, párbajtőrben I. osztályú versenyzővé váltam, Santelli mindent megtett, hogy a kapcsolat ne szakadjon meg barátaimmal, a későbbi két kiváló vívómesterrel. Még jobban elmélyült kapcsolatom n Maestroval. amikor kisebbik lánya — a későbbi nagyon tehetséges, értékes festőművész, Fiorenza (a síron — pontatlanul — Fiorenza áll), aki a sírban együtt nyugszik édesapjával — a Képzőművészeti Főiskolára került. Akkor már tanársegéd voltam. Gyakran járogattam a családhoz, Santelli két fiával is jóban voltam. Es ameddig Santelli oktatással foglalkozott, bármelyik klub tagja voltam, mindig nála iskoláztam, az ő termében gyakoroltam... Örökös adósságot érzek iránta. Ezért igyekeztem — úgy érzem, méltón — hozzájárulni munkámmal emlékéhez. A Santelli bronz domborműből két példányt készítettem, a másikat a sportmúzeumnak ajándékozzuk, a régi tanítványok nevében. Készül egy terrakotta példány is, azt fia, Santelli Giorgio, Magyarország 1921. évi kardbajnoka, vívómester fogja megkapni."
"Ars Ensis Lovagi Kör és Kardvívó Iskola Egyesület
Március 14., 19:09
Szervusztok!
Biztos hallottátok: eljött a nagy pihenés ideje! Az iskolákat bezárják, távban oktatnak, akit csak lehet. Hát, vívást nem lehet. Úgyhogy mi is nyugovóra térünk egy kis időre. Hétfőtől nem tartunk edzéseket.
Ez lehet pár hét, de lehet egy hónap is.
A befizetésekről annyit, hogy a márciust átugorjuk, mintha nem is lenne. Aki már fizetett, az áprilisra fizetett. Aki még nem, az az áprilisival tartozik.
Ne csüggedj! Ahogy a világ ébred, ébredünk mi is. Addig is, edz, fuss, készülj az FS-edre, készülj a táborra, olvass sokat és figyelj az egészségedre!
Ez az időszak furcsa lesz, de az Ars Ensis nagy ereje a barátságainkban, a csapatszellemben van. Ápold hát! És ha segítségre van szükséged, nem nyílik a vécéajtó, vásárolni kellene menni, de épp nem tudsz, unatkozol vagy nagyon el vagy veszve - írj nekünk! Az egyesület negyven oktatója mindent el fog követni, hogy a segítségedre siessen.
És ne feledd - az oroszlán a szívünkbe van írva. Tartsd magad ennek szellemében!
Az Ars Ensis Lovagi Kör és Vívóiskola Egyesület oktatói, vezetői, szerviensei." (FB)
Érdekes a fejvéd konstrukciója, látszik, hogy fejlesztésileg mennyire lemaradtak az olaszokhoz képest, vagy akár a bécsújhelyi fejvédekhez (Pacholek) képest. (Ezekről bővebb összefoglaló a blog Tipológia bejegyzésében.)
Gyles Hawkins Very interesting. You can literally see the difference between a martial art and tag with a car aerial.
BH Simpson I have to say that this is one of my least favourite aspects of following groups concerned with historical sabre. I fence 'sport' sabre and have done since about 1989. I can appreciate both concepts of 'sabre' and I attempt to fuse both into how I develop my own activities (I regularly use Valville and it works because it is sabre). Sport sabre and HEMA sabre are just different ways of replicating actual battles to the death. Neither of them actually more 'real' because they are both bloodless simulations with blunt weapons. And, to be honest, most of the comments I read here about sport sabre being either this or that are, for the most part, just plain wrong. Matt Easton once posted a video about the things he hated about sport sabre. This lead to every type of vitriol being unleashed because Matt Easton's opinion has weight. He then had to follow up with a counter-video to try to tone things down a bit because it got a bit out of hand. It's just a bit tiresome. I was hoping this group would be different from the other ones that I've abandoned... but I see we're back to the 'car aerial' stuff.
Randal Cousins I hear what you're saying, but in all fairness if your rules allow hits with the flat and "whipover" strikes through blocks, is it really all that unreasonable to compare it to car aerials rather than swords? Seems to me this is a problem of the sports sabreurs' own collective making.
Is it unreasonable abuse, or is it fair criticism between rival activities? (Yes, of course you can do both, and undoubtedly both have benefits, but nevertheless there are many - I daresay most, certainly on the far bigger sport fencing side - who do one and do not do the other, and to some extent they compete for the involvement of those who want to simulate fighting with swords.
Matt Easton I used to fence modern sabre. I don't hate it at all - my point always was, and remains, that I find it disappointing that a great sport has been a bit ruined by the rules and equipment in recent decades. But actually my main objection is to epee rules and the 1/25th of a second issue. I don't have any issues with foil and my only main issue with modern sabre is that you can score a touch with any part of the blade, which was explicitly not allowed until they brought in electric scoring equipment.
Esgrima Xativa Matt Easton People with money and power who run the FIE actually want to bring back sensors or develop a more updated version of electric saber which would only allow quality cuts to count. I hope this happens asap but most likely it won't be until after the Tokyo games. We WILL see sport saber look back to its origins for a better future.
BH Simpson Matt Easton That was what I remembered from the initial video and then follow-up - that you did HEMA and not sport sabre/fencing for a reason. It was just sad to see all the knee jerk 'car antenna' comments that exploded from your really quite valid points.
Matt Easton It's a very complex topic, but I think it's interesting to note how broad the weight restrictions were for sabres in the 1906 Olympics. If I recall correctly, the sabres had to be between 500g and 700g. As we all know, that's very broad, but also heavier than modern sabre in general. I have a Wilkinson sport sabre right here, from about the 1960s, which I just weighed at 380g...
Matt Easton I just looked it up - in the 1908 Olympics the total weight of the sabre was between 470 and 780gr. That is a HUGE variation - literally between a modern sport sabre and a Victorian military practice sabre.
Matt Easton In 1912 it was specified as 470-770g and in 1914 the FIE adopted this as standard for sport fencing sabres....
Matt Easton Honestly, I would LOVE to see modern sabre switched to 770g sabres and have the electrical contact only on the edges of stiff blades. I'd be all over that like a rash.
Julian Spilsbury People were still using sabres for real in the 1920`s - most armies. Is that a factor?
Esgrima Xativa Matt Easton Yeah me too. I have two hanwei radaelli's I electrified but the problem is they can still be used like a magic wand or whip but just heavier. We need an electric box or smart saber that says yeah that was a good cut or thrust because it hit with x level of force.
Matt Easton Matt Easton I would imagine it is possible to just coat the sides and back of the blade so that only the edge will complete the circuit?
Esgrima Xativa Matt Easton Yes, I have thought of this but just laying the blade on the target will turn the light on. It kind of depends on where we want to go with this. Are we trying to recreate shirtless dueling with lightweight razor sharp thin blades or are we going for a more military thicker bladed, perhaps just as sharp but needing more percussive force to get the job done through something like a military coat of the time? Then we have the issue of light slicing cuts done to areas like the neck or back of the hand. How can we make an electric system that properly detects this? Maybe a smart saber is the way to go. The other route would be the protective gear itself registering the hit as in sport saber or taekwondo. I have seen some taewkwondo vests for kids that can be calibrated to require more or less force, depending on their ages so that as they get bigger, more force is needed to register a kick. I was going to rig up one of those spes foam sabers with the magnetic socks used in taekwondo for use with their system and then rip up one of their electric vests to get the sensors out but that stuff is way to expensive for me to buy it for my backyard projects on how to make historical saber electric. And obviously, all of this has to be wifi so I can use some of the offline footwork from all my Spanish saber manuals without wrapping myself up in the reel cord.
Alberto Miguel Perez Rueda Esgrima Xativa I don't see the problem with light hits counting once you take flat hits out of the picture, with the right of way rules you can somewhat secure that the better cuts are the ones that count.
Pont egy olyan I. vh szuronyvívó fejvédet mutat be, ami Németh Árpád gyűjteményében is megtalálható (Rejtély?! blogbejegyzés). Minden lehetséges szögből be van mutatva.
Egy kellemes cikk 1926-ból, az őszi vívószezon kezdetéről.
Az újságíró végigjárta -- vagy csak a kávéházi kollégáit kérdezte ki ;-)), viszonylag alaposan -- az ismertebb budapesti vívótermeket: Fodor, Santelli, Gerentsér, Lovass, Schlotzer. Számos vívástörténeti adatmorzsát talál benne az érdeklődő.
Klasszikus 8-as formájú vívótőr. Vastag kesztyű, amit tőrvíváshoz használtak, több fotón is látjuk. A szívecske is jó pont, és a jobb oldalt van, tehát a vívó balkezes.
"Az olasz fegyverek diadalmaskodtak abban az időben nálunk is és ennek befolyása alatt a MAC olasz mestereket szerződtetett. Első helyen áll ezek között Santelli Italo, a millenáris kardverseny győztese. A mai napig is az ő iskolájából kerül ki a magyar vívók java. Giroldini Frederico és Toricelli Angelo volt a másik két olasz mester, akiknek útmutatása nyomán indult el a magyar vívósport a mai dicsőség felé.
Az olasz vívórendszer technikája, párosulva a magyar faj kitűnő tulajdonságaival, megteremtette a magyar vívórendszert, amelynek Gerentsér László iskolája volt a megtestesítője, szellemi vezére pedig Nagy Béla. És ezzel megindult a magyar vívósport renaissance-a. 1900 óta egész Európában a magyar kard győzedelmeskedik."
Tetszés szerint nagyítható és tanulmányozható ;-) Az egyik katona csákóján jól olvasható az ezredszám (15), az egyik egyenruhán pedig jól látható 2 egymást keresztező fejsze, valamint gránátok. Szóval, valószínűleg francia utászokról lehet szó.
Ui.:
Sz332 számára a kissé szögletes, 8-as alakú vívótőrök lehetnek érdekesek.
