Ebben a topikban a vívás harcművészeti aspektusait szeretnénk megvitatni. Elsősorban a történelmi európai vívással, ezen belül szablyavívással szeretnénk foglalkozni, de minden más vívás képviselője is szívesen látott vendég a topikban.
"Én általában a magyar típusú szablyát szoktam szablyának nevezni, vagyis egy vágásra kitalált, egyélű, enyhébben ívelt, fokéllel ellátott, az élirányában megtört markolatú kardot értek alatta. Ugyanakkor már a kései magyar szablyák sem felelnek meg mindig ezeknek
a tulajdonságoknak."
Nem kellene ennyire leszűkíteni a meghatározást. Pl. nem tudjuk, hogy a honfoglalás kori szablyákkal milyen mértékben szúrtak. A fokél, az enyhe ív és a megtört markolat miatt kiválóan alkalmasak szúrásra is.
"Ez a fegyver vélhetően belső-ázsiai eredetű, de a környező területek birodalmainak, így Kínának és Perzsiának a fejlesztései is befolyásolták az alakulását."
A mai tudásunk szerint a szablyák a VII-VIII. sz. alakultak ki a Volga és KM közötti területen.
Valószínűleg több központban: KM (avarok), Kazár Kaganátus (annak magterülete), esetleg a Kaukázus is szóba jöhet.
"Így a szablya technikai értelemben vett előzményét, az egyélű, egyenes pengéjű, fokéles kardot szablyának tartom, mint ahogy annak későbbi, változatlanul egyenes pengéjű utódait is. Egy sor más ívelt vágófegyvert viszont nem." (Peter Dekkerre hivatkozva.)
"A magyar szablya csúcspontja számomra a 16.-17. századi magyar és lengyel munkák. A 18.század második felében induló szabványosítás már visszalépés, általános tulajdonságai is romlanak, vélhetően az olcsóbb gyárthatóság miatt. De közrejátszhattak a fegyver használatának nyugat-európai elképzelései is. Itt főképp a súlypont eltolódására gondolok."
2. lábjegyzet: "Érdekes párhuzam, hogy az ókori görögöknek is létezett egy ívelt, jatagánhoz hasonló formával rendelkező, de annál rövidebb és szélesebb pengéjű kardja a makhaira, ami a lovasság kedvelt fegyvere volt. Arról nem tudok, hogy leírták volna, hogy miért is használta a lovasság."
"Milyen előnyt biztosít, hogy egy fegyvernek csak egy éle van?"
"Mi a fokél szerepe? Modern magyarázatok szerint a szúrás miatt ilyen a kialakítása. Ez egyáltalán nem szükségszerű, a szamuráj kardokra, koreai kardokra sem jellemző a fokél, miközben fontos része a szúrás a használatának. Érdekes analógiaként a kaszapengét is élezték a fok részen, miközben nyilvánvaló, hogy nem szúrásra használták az eszközt. Valószínűleg az lehet az ok, hogy ne torlódjon fel vágásnál az anyag. Elméleti szinten ezt egyébként sem lehet eldönteni, meg kellene vizsgálni, hogy különböző anyagok vágásakor hogy viselkednek a fokéles, és az azzal nem rendelkező pengék."
"A fokéllel végrehajtott (kardkerülő) támadások újabb keletű alkalmazások lehetnek, a korai szablyák enyhe ívvel rendelkeztek, értelmezhetetlen ez a technika az esetükben. Ugyanígy hiányzik ez a fajta használat a kínai szablyáknál, ahol szintén megmaradt a pengék enyhe íve."
Tibor SzebényiEgy kritikai észrevételem lenne: ha a fegyverek alakját vizsgáljuk, és abból következtetünk a használatra, akkor a "honfoglaló" magyar szablyánál szerintem pont a szúrás a hangsúlyos. A 6. oldalon a szablyák rajzainál lecsapott heggyel van ábrázolva a 9-10. sz-i magyar szablya. Van ilyen is a leletek között, de ritka. A többség középre hegyezett. Alatta a második, a végvári szablya jól van rajzolva a lecsapott heggyel, ami azzal is a vágást hangsúlyozza. A középre hegyezett hegy viszont a szúrás előtérbe helyezését feltételezi. A hosszú fokél, és a jellegzetesen megtört markolat így együtt a szúrás hatékonyságát segíti szerintem. A lovas indokhoz (mivel elsősorban lovas használatnál kell elemeznünk) - valóban nagy a veszélye a fegyver elvesztésének, de épp ezért alakultak ki olyan gyakorlatok, ami pont a szúrás utánkövetését gyakoroltatja be vágtában. Pl. a tent-pegging, ami ma már valóban angolos dolognak tűnhet, de ezt az indiai gyarmatról hozták magukkal a britek.
Zsolt KissSzerzőAdminisztrátor Nem zárom ki a szúrás használatát, csak azt írtam, hogy nem tartom jellemzőnek. Az a gond, hogy ténylegesen visszaellenőrizhetetlen. Bár ahogy a katonai szimulációs rendszerek fejlődnek, talán pár évtized és kipróbálhatunk egy középkori csatát is "élőben". Ez a kép melyik leletről készült? Amit eddig láttam, azon főleg nagyon korrodált magyar szablyák voltak, amiről kb. semmit nem lehetett kideríteni, meg bolgár és kelet-európai darabok.
Strohmayer ÁdámZsolt Kiss a 9-10. századból már a 90-es évek derekáról is 150 fölötti szablyaleletről olvasni Révész karosi monográfiájában, azóta ez a szám még növekedett is. A rengeteg, valóban rossz állapotú penge között azért akad néhány kifejezetten jó állapotban ránkmaradt példány is, nem is beszélve az ukrajnai és oroszországi, igen közeli párhuzamként vizsgálható leletekről. Egyetértek Tiborral, szerintem is hangsúlyosabb lehetett a magyar szablyák használata során a szúrás, mint a vívás. Tompa Balázs elég sok gyalogos és lovas kísérletet elvégzett szablyákkal, kardokkal és szablyamarkolatú kardokkal, és ő is ezt az álláspontot képviseli.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNDyVh01cSk
Tibor SzebényiZsolt Kiss orosz/ukrán fémkeresős anyag, nem tudom, pontosan hol találták. De elég egységes ennek a fegyvernek az alakja a kelet-európai (magyar-bolgár-kazár) tengelyen. Ami szépen megmaradt, az a bécsi szablya, ennek a típusnak a jellegzetességeivel:
"Now you are getting ugly. You do not do any better than those guys flaming forums.
You should consider carefully. Knights were slaugheting peasants as well. And how can U talk about a different martial art like this? Do you know it? Well I do. I was involved in Iaidó for 4 years 5 years ago. And I know that the Iaidó has a different purpose, than WMA. If you talk to a true iaidó-ka, and tell him that he cannot fight, the answer is usually: well I do not want to. And that's it.
There are people who flame and attack other martial arts - that has nothing to do with Iaidó or Kendo or whatever. Please try to see the person behind! Of course, if a martial artist of a harmonic martial art like Iaidó, with no contact sparring insists that he/she can fight, it's a laugh. Still no need talking about them like this! Trash them! Trash them to hell! Bot not on forums!"
"I had the chance last night, while waiting for another event, to watch a kendo class and got to see a 3rd and 4th degree black belt in that art do free play. So I was watching skilled good kendo guys go at it. I was incredibly grateful for this art afterwards. There were 2 positions used, a kind of middle pflug and vom tag. That was it. The hits were more often than not "tag" hits. They had a very fast sheitelhau, but that was it. The footwork was entirely linear and guys 6" away from each other did no grappling or ringen am schwert.
Despite the obvious impressive commitment, practice and speed of the fighters, I came away with the sense that the art was severely limited and that a much newer ARMAteer, despite a lesser training level, could hold their own against the guys I saw just by virtue of being able to do more than 3 moves."
"I am by no means denigrating the guys I saw. They were well conditioned, very fast and obviously had a high level of training. It was just like watching a carpenter in action who was really awesome with hammer, but who absolutely refused to use a saw, level, tape measure or screwdriver. I am just criticizing what to me looked like a very limited skill set.
In terms of how I would do, I don't know. If I was restricted to 2 guards, 1 strike and one set of footwork, I would do badly. I think that using the full WMA longsword arsenal, with them restricted to their thing, I think I would have a good chance. Not so much because of my skill level (I am only a low to average fighter trying to tame my inner buffalo), but just because I could do so much more."
Akkoriban Waldmann Szabolcs is írogatott oda (ARMA fórum).
"'ts completelly true. In a way. For if we look at the medieval warfare as a method of raging war, it simply evolved - we still got armour today, we still got daggers, yet long-range weapons play most role.
As a martial art, it died away. Longsword went out of fashion somewhere at the end of the 17th century, and what remained from swordsmanship, that is, the smallsword and the rapier, changed into a sport with more and more binding rules. Soon there was not much martial artiness left in it. What it became, you can see in any modern fencers salle.
So what we western martial artists ty to do, is resurrect an art that has died away some 3-400 years ago and has probably seen it's zenit 500 years ago.
It is bad, for many things are not clear, a fencing master of the meidveal times colud answer with a few words. Seemingly small and unimportant things, but these are hindering us to become perfect, imho. It has some uses as well, tough. Even more, than faults, if you ask me. Verbal heritage distorts, and it distorts rapidly, within a hundred years. Things get forgotten, or considered unimportant by some poo-bah guru hidden in a forest in the far and unreachable east; other things are changed in favour of one's beliefs, on personal thoughts or worse, becouse of juristical or sportsrules. 'ts not always the case.
And on the top of that, many modern stiles are not more than 50 years old! Thought up by a single individual! Others are derivated from something that derivated from real fighting skills ages ago, or so the latest master said. I guess nobody needs to tell you that 60 fencing manuals from the medievals have more power and are more proof than anything else. Or simply think of our earliest SURVIVING manual, the I33, comming from the 13th-14th (!!!) century. One has to dig very deep to find anything like this in any other martial art.
I just don't understand why we still have to defend ourselves all the time, with all this proof and heritage."
Milyen jó, hogy megvannak ezek a régi társalgások, nagy kár, hogy a kendo-world-ös topik már nem olvasható.
Matt:
"It's a shame that they found such a scrappy little knock-around video of ours... I guess that's the price you pay for putting such things online! But the resulting conversation is pretty interesting IMO."
"What would be most decisive of course is if we could put online video of us bouting against kendoka's.. They seem to confuse a messy appearance with inefficiency, and the two simply don't always equate. The best MMA fighters often look messy from a karate or other martial art viewpoint, but they're certainly not ineffective or inefficient.
I haven't addressed the broken lineage issue because I completely disagree, and it's really a different topic. While it's true that they have a couple of generations of teachers in the modern form of kendo, this as an art itself is very very removed from the old forms of japanese swordsmanship (as you can see from comparing kendo with kenjitsu or bujinkan - it's like chalk and cheese), so their point is really a little moot. They are as unattached from old Japanese swordsmanship as we are from old European. As some argue though, we work direct from period martial sources, whereas they rely on word of mouth, across a period that saw swordsmanship evolve into a sport loosely connected to the original art, and existing under completely different parameters and rules. I can see both sides to the argument though - EMA through lineages certainly have advantages, but I think WMA through period sources do as well.
I must admit I'm somewhat surprised that they've basically agreed with my points about kendoka hitting each other until someone is awarded a point and suchlike. I can see the logic of keeping trying something until you get it perfect - this is surely one way of learning good form. But what should recognise is that we take a different attitude, where we are trying *not to get wounded*. This leads to something which looks very different - more hesitant, therefore more random looking. If I only attack and concentrate on looking good while doing so and covering the line sometimes then sure the result will look more like kendo. Attacking all the time is MUCH easier than trying not to get wounded and fitting an offense into this. Plus we have far more parameters to worry about - more types of sword attack, grapples etc. I would say that in WMA we have much more 'on our plate' to worry about when bouting.
This is not an excuse for bad footwork, of course, but I do think it is part of a vindication. We have to work more on the footwork.
I wonder what kendo would look like if you told them that as soon as they got tagged anywhere on their body they would be out of the bout and the next person would take their place? I'm guessing it would change the nature of the fight rather a bit."
A korábbi -- akár komolyabb -- kendós tapasztalat egyáltalán nem szokatlan dolog a HEMA-vívók között.
"Heiko Große (Broadsword Academy Germany): Heiko Große has been practising various martial arts since 1999, including 10 years of Kendo and some years of Stickfighting with the Dog Brothers, when he switched to HEMA. In 2009 he finally founded the Broadsword Academy Germany..."
Ugyanakkor a Schola Gladiatoria egyik oktatója korábban kendózott.
"COLIN FIELDHOUSE
Colin runs SG6 in Bradford.
Colin has had an interest in swordsmanship since his mid-teens. Before finding HEMA he took up modern fencing (sabre), before also studying Kendo at Bramhall Kendo Club near Stockport."
Sergi Reig "Must say that everyone blames Hutton Hanwei, but most of the veterans have started with it. It is a fine (and cheap) beginner sabre. Anyway I’m interested in Regenyei’s Duelist too.
Alberto Miguel Perez Rueda May not be as easy to get in Europe, but Castille has a series of light sabres based on the Italian Dueling tradition.
Stefano Conese Very light & quality sabre: VB Swordshop Kft. is the way! Lehet, hogy egy kép erről: 1 személy, álló és belső tér
Lee Fillingsness I’ve had the same 2 Hanwei Huttons for over ten years with no problems at all
Richard Moore I have the Windlasses Hutton and I think it's a better blade, but you need to wrap the narrow grip a few times with Tennis Grip Tape.
Zsolt Sandor The dueling sabre from Viktor Berbekucz is pretty neat. [ ;-))) ]
Mark Hammond In the club I belong to, many people have purchased either the Hanwei Hutton or Hanwei Radielli, and they swap in Castille Armory sabre blades.
Steeve Malette Do you do italian system like Radaelli ?
Steven Schwall I have a few sport sabers available. Also, I have two Hanwei Hutton and two Hanwei Pecoraro sabers, abd have had no problems. I think some HEMA sabrereurs might be hitting too hard in an effort to hit fast. But I don't know, I don't compete.
Magnus Hagelberg ?? of your arm is injured.. would it be justified to look at a nylon option, that could serve well as a pell weapon once you are recovered? I think, they would be lighter..or is sparring your main goal?
Luka Pavlič Magnus Hagelberg Black Fencer nylons aren't lighter than steel, they try to get as close to originals as possible with most of their models.
Magnus Hagelberg Luka Pavlič true. they used to make lighter ones, but they've since made more original feeling pieces. they ballance realy well tough. or what is your take?
Luka Pavlič Magnus Hagelberg They do balance well, as in, close to original/steel. I wouldn't call them lighter or easier to handle, other than the spadroon or somesuch. They sure handle lighter than any Regenyei, though. Those are all relatively forward-weighted.
Alexander Craddock I’ve handled one - they’re still very forward heavy in my opinion, although extremely durable. I have a Hanwei Hutton that has stood up to a lot of abuse, but it definitely shows it’s age and quality, and it’s a dice roll on the QA of the specific one you get. My current favorite “light” all purpose saber is the Krieger basket hilt saber. Good hand coverage for the weight, and a nimble blade that still feels safe in parries.
Paul Wayne Griffith The Hutton is a great little saber when paired with another Hutton. Get one!
Pascale Boots Thank you all so much! Going to take my time researching all the options ????
James Stamper Do not get the Cold Steel version. I got a couple, but when used against heavier sabers, the guard dints very quickly. Mine didn't last 6 months."
Matthew Pham "If you live in Europe, I have no suggestions, but Castille blades mounted in Hanwei Pecoraro furniture are apparently quite nice . Pradana Pandu Mahardhika 690 grams isn't "very" light -- if you're looking for something really light, ask a modern fencing retailer for the heaviest non-electric sabre they have in stock, which should come in somewhere between 450 and 500 grams. It's also easier to get spare/replacement blades than just about any kind of HEMA-specific sabre. That is, unless you already have one (and are looking for a somewhat heavier model to complement is) or if all the other sabres in the club are too heavy to work together well with a modern sport sabre.
Michael Müller-Hewer Pradana Pandu Mahardhika do you think that the descriptions we find in sabre fencing manuals of the 18th/19th century were made for weapons of 450-500 gr ?
Pradana Pandu Mahardhika Michael Müller-Hewer Some of them, yes. Barbasetti wrote that the practice sabres for his style should be a minimum of 500g, and while that’s a _maximum_ in the modern FIE specifications, it’s hardly an unreasonable tweak in the name of accessibility. Besides, I’ve practiced Barbasetti with modern sabres myself and it works pretty decently for drills and private lessons. It would even work in fencing against a very large segment of beginners whose bodies and (more importantly) brains don’t run fast enough yet to seriously exploit the lighter weight of a sport sabre. That and I’ve seen far more crappy sabre fencing from people who insist on jumping to “realistic” weights to soon than from the ones willing to start light.
Michael Müller-Hewer Pradana Pandu Mahardhika Barbasetti is late 19th. He is mostly considered of one of the fathers of modern sport sabre. A light sabre here is a good choice. But when you work on earlier German or even English manuals, I consider a too light sabre more as a handicap.
Concerning the “crappie sabre fencing” we can often watch on YouTube, most of them are obviously autodidacts. Sabre fencing, as fencing at all, you have to learn. And a correct sabre hit is more difficult to execute than an epee hit … and when you do a “quarthau” (German style) you need a blade a little bit heavier than 500gr in my opinion …
Brian Jauw Came here to say the same thing.
Kim Cheung Do you want light or differently balenced. Sabres with a bar seem lighter.
My regenyei strong Sabre and kvetun are roughly the same weight however the balence is entirely different. The regenyei is very in the blade and requires a lot of force to make it move and stop. Whilst the kvetun doesn't. And regenyei bar types are lighting fast compared to the strong Sabre."
Wolfgang Rafert "Get a sport sabre for the time being. Doesn't need to be electric.
Philippe Bernaerts Wolfgang Rafert Or a stage saber, which is a sport sabre hilt on a sport epee blade (non electric). If it's good enough for Zorro, it's good enough for me.
Paul Becker Soon, heavy modern sabre blade plus historical Steel guard and leather Grip. Coming in some weeks at our shop.Depending in the different blades from 500-700gr. In the picture its a 500gr.
Wolfgang Rafert I don't expect there to be any difference in technique between this and an off-the-shelf sport sabre.
Pradana Pandu Mahardhika Wolfgang Rafert If this could be pushed down to around the same price bracket as modern sport sabres, it'd be a nice alternative to having to fiddle with an electric sabre to remove the scoring components (which is pretty much the case in most parts of the world where modern fencing retailers don't carry non-electric weapons or unwired blades at all). Might also help to overcome some people's reluctance to practice with weapons that look too "modern."
Wolfgang Rafert Pradana Pandu Mahardhika All you gotta do is unscrew it and remove the metal plug. Literally 30 seconds. Can also order parts separately and build one.
Pradana Pandu Mahardhika The first is something I've done myself, but that's because I've had prior experience as an armourer's apprentice when I fenced in secondary school. I know many people who go into military sabre without any prior fencing experience and are too afraid to fiddle with their equipment in this way out of a (not entirely irrational) concern that they might mess something up. The second isn't really an option in many countries -- for instance, here in Indonesia the vast majority of fencing suppliers only sell assembled electric weapons, and the one or two who sell parts don't always have the right parts in stock (and buying the individual parts could be considerably more expensive due to the import taxes and fees being assessed individually for each item).
Justin Hernandez When folks are talking about “light”, the overall weight of the weapon may not be a good measure of what you want. I’ve had lighter sabers that are very blade forward and feel heavier than sabers that are 100 grams heavier.
I’d recommend Castille Armory’s 3 bar trooper saber with a F3 flex blade. If you have a forearm injury, I would also avoid sabers with overly small grips, as they will lace undue stress on your grip. Using a dueling saber against a military saber will magnify this problem for the user, as you will work harder on your parries. You will develop cutting mechanics in your grip differently with a dueling style saber vs. a heavier infantry or cavalry saber too. Using a thumb grip can cause increased pressure on your forearm also."
Maxime Chouinard "The Hanwei Hutton gets a lot of bad rep, but it's a fine sabre when starting on a budget. The hilt is flimsy, and the blade quality is uneven and often too rigid to practice thrusts, but it's a nice budget piece to start with, and the parts can easily be replaced, and we need more of that.
A better option, IMHO, is the Pecoraro. The hilt is not really thicker, but the shape makes it infinitely more durable. I've used mine sparring against much heavier sabres with nothing worse than a few dings, where the Hutton gets crushed. The blade is meh, but more flexible than the Hutton, and like the former you can easily swap the blade for a better Castille one. Plus, if you are looking for a light weapon, the hilt of the pecoraro is very protective, almost as much as a baskethilt, and allows you to wear light gloves, a part that is often overlooked when looking at a training sabre's weight.
Steeve Malette Maxime Chouinard or the Radaelli one but less protection for the hand but very good …I have both the pecorado and the Radaelli
Luka Pavlič You don't want to hear this, but you need to hear this. Don't start sabre with an injured forearm. Sabre is very tough on your arms, especially as you start. Let yourself recover, and do it properly later.
Pascale Boots Luka Pavlič yes I know, but we do it in class. Amd my injury is even after the pandamic 'break' not any better. But during class I use a Hanwei and didnt had any trouble. (Doing technical it is, one spar round and I stopped) But thanks for saying it ??
Lukas Lustiger Pascale Boots I use several Regenyei Sabers, also two adapted "Duelists". What shall i say: what you see is what you get. I like them very much, mine weigh about ~715 grams each and i love them. Be aware: you need to find your own style of fencing when using those as they are no match against heavier sabres if it would be all about a direct engagement. Propper parries are a must in this case. So for starters I would recommend to use this sabres only against the same "class" of sabres in terms of weight. If you want more infos you can PM me any time. In the end there is just one more thing to say: don't start with sabre if you have an injured forearm. This sport is quite fast and intense when speaking about arms. One class does not say much. If you use those on a regular basis you won't do your body something good in the end ??
André Hajjar My review is to stick with your first idea and you will not be disappointed. ????
Joseph Sarunic yeah that sabre hurts my fore arm like hell, even though it is "light"."
"My teaching sabres, I've 6 like this I use since 8 years. Blade and grip is Hanwei, the guards are recycling from old sabres, weight between 750 and 900 gr. I added a leather finger loop, very appressiated by my students ... I never had problems with this Hanwei blades." [MCS FB]
Az egyik kosár (bal) valami Parise (?), a másik Pecoraro.
VSz elég komoly terminológiai gubanc van a szövegben.
Szablya =/= sportkard
A sportkardnál mindenki egészen pontosan érti, hogy mikor kezdődik a sikersorozat, kik voltak azok a vívómesterek, akik lefektették a sikersorozathoz szükséges alapokat, kb. mi az a klasszikus magyar sportkardvívás. Számos könyvben megtaláljuk ennek az összefoglalását.
