Nem latin nyelvű feliratról, hanem ma latinnak minősülő betűket említettem. (Nem görög, nem héber, nem örmény, nem etruszk, stb.)
Tudod a római úthálozatot már megbeszéltük, amelyről kiderült, hogy a kelták építették, a Rajna híddal egyetemben...(dendrokronológia)
"Nem te írod a saját beírásaidat?"
Férfiasan bevallom, néha a titkárom.
Különösen akkor, amikor a britanniai kelta aranyaimat rendezgetem.
Nem olyan a színűk mint a római aureusoké, (ezek vörösebbek, valószínű ír hatásra). Érdekes módon latin(sic!)betűk olvashatók rajtuk, az egyik oldalukon általában ugró ló, kerék, félhold, nap? stb. ábrázolásokkal, míg a másik oldal kalászt, vagy 6 db. összetalálkozó? kalászt ábrázol. Legalábbis azok, amelyeket rendezgetem.
Te ügyes gyerek vagy szerintem pillanatokon belül találsz a neten brit-kelta érmeket.
A NEMET feliratú kelta ezüstérmet is megtalálod szerintem gyorsan. Persze az nem brit, hanem a nyelvünket beszélő néptől nyugatra élt népet jelenti (Götz)...
"...bányák megszerzése Róma nagyhatalmi politikájának annyira czélpontját képezé, hogy az aranyat, ezüstöt még Brittaniában is - hol pedig arany nem mutatkozott - a győzelem díjául nyilvánítja."
Nem te írod a saját beírásaidat? :))
Magad idézel az Agricolából aranyról, ezüstről és más fémekről.
Vagy nálad ez jelenti azt, hogy "egy hang sincs"?
DE a hozzászólásomban levő idézet 3/4-e pedig egészen konkrétan az aranybányászatról szól. A könnyebb megtalálás érdekében azt írtam elé, hogy "aranybányászatról"
"De, hogy mennyire marginális jelentőségű lehetett mutatja, hogy Téglás Gábor 1889-es Akadémiai székfoglaló tanulmányában nem tud a Britanniai aranyról Tacitus korában...
"Tanulmányok a rómaiak Dáciai aranybányászatáról. Olvastatott a M-T: Akadémia II. osztájának 1889. évi márczius 11-én tartott ülésén."
Hát akkor mást nem gondolhatunk, mint azt, hogy ezek szerint Poggio 1889 után hamisította az Agricolát. :))
Kicsit vicces, ahogy így mellébeszélsz. Továbbra is az az érzésem, mintha munkahelyi kötelességed lenne, a mundér [a hiv.poz.tud.] védelme. Ki beszélt ólomról és ezüstről? Látod komoly adatok támasztják alá e két fém britanniai kinyerését. Akkoriban még nem tudtak ólomból aranyat csinálni, pedig a Poggio félék nagyon igyekeztek. De aranyról egy hang sincs!
Poggiot, aki több évet töltött Angliában, amikor az Agricola életét is megírta, úgylátszik a későbbi Skóciai és a Walesi arany híre elérte, és meg is írta. Köszönjük neki!
De, hogy mennyire marginális jelentőségű lehetett mutatja, hogy Téglás Gábor 1889-es Akadémiai székfoglaló tanulmányában nem tud a Britanniai aranyról Tacitus korában...
"Tanulmányok a rómaiak Dáciai aranybányászatáról. Olvastatott a M-T: Akadémia II. osztájának 1889. évi márczius 11-én tartott ülésén."
"The lead mines and extracting silver
Within six years of the invasion of 43AD., the Mendip lead mines were in full production. By 70AD., Britain was the biggest supplier of lead and silver to the empire. It reached such a level that the Spanish lodged a complaint with the emperor as their lead trade had fallen to such a low level. The emperor responded by setting limits for Britain's production, but it didn't affect production."
Az aranybányászatról:
"Mining the gold
It's not a well known fact, but Britain does have deposits of gold in it's landscape. Panning for gold in alluvial gravel had been carried out in streams in Cornwall and Scotland for hundreds of years before the Romans arrived. The large scale mining of gold was instigated at the only gold mine in Britain in Dolaucothi, Wales. The works can still be seen near the village of Pumpsaint
An ingenious method of finding gold
When the Romans conquered Wales in 70AD., they immediately set to work building reservoirs on mountains in the Cothi valley. A seven mile long aqueduct was built to move the water into these man made lakes. Then all together the water was released down the mountainside which created an avalanche consisting of water, plant life and top soil. It was a massive project and must have taken many months to complete. The end result was worthwhile. Once the surface layer had been removed, there was just bare rock and exposed seams of gold.
Excavating the gold
They wasted no time in putting the slave labour to work digging the shafts that followed the seams deep into the mountains. Initially the gold was extracted by the open cast method where it was dug from the surface. As they when followed the seam deeper into the rock other methods had to be used.
The rock was tough so the Romans used a process of fire-setting to break up the rock and so make it easier to remove. Fire-setting was the process of building a bonfire of wood in the shaft and raising the temperature to a high degree. Then cold water was poured down the shaft. This sudden drop in temperature on one part of the rock caused it to crack violently and break away from rock beneath which was still extremely hot..
The miners than began to use picks to break this rock up into pieces that would fit into a large wooden container which was hauled up to the surface. This vessel was also used to transport the diggers down the shaft and back up after the day's work.
This work was hazardous in many ways. The shafts could be over 100ft (33m) deep so the miners often worked in near total darkness, the only light being from an oil lamp the miner carried."
Szegény Tacitus nem tudta, hogy Bittanniából nem hoztak Rómába aranyat, mert nem volt...
Agricola. 12.
"Britannia földje aranyat, ezüstöt és más fémeket terem, a győzelem jutalmául."
A Monte Cassinoi szöveg pedig így hangzott:
"Britannia aurum et argentum et alia metalla pretium victoriae."
Nahát, nahát... magamtól sosem jövők rá!
Hiszen Észak-Itáliában Livius idejében még etruszkusul beszélnek, felirataikat még mind-mind etruszkul róják, mi több a páduai illetőségű Livius is etruszkusul rója monumentális művét, hacsak a ravasz latinok és szabinok Etruriát hajóval megkerülve be nem hurcolják a latin nyelvet Páduába.
Köszönöm, hogy felnyitottad a szemem!
Kezdem azt hinni, hogy neked tényleg valami Monte Cassinoban hamisított Livius köteted van. :))
Az enyémben ugyanis az általad lejjebb idézett, a raetusokról származásáról szóló bekezdésből az derül ki, hogy az etruszkokról beszél Livius és nem a latinokról.
Beidéznéd a te Livius kötetedből az idézetedet megelőző öt mondatot?
Mire alapozod, hogy Livius romlott latin nyelvről beszél a raetusokkal kapcsolatban.
A kis Suetonius nem olvasta el rendesen Liviust, annak ellenére, hogy kötelező olvasmány volt, mert különben nem írta volna a következőket:
"A raetiai és a vindeliciai háborúban az alpesi népeket, a pannoniaiban a breucusokat [brekuszok?] meg a dalmatákat igázta le."
A Caesarok élete. Tiberius, 9. (Magyar Helikon 1975 Fordította Kis Ferencné)
Közismert, hogy Tacitus ott kezdte, ahol Lívius abbahagyta.
Nézzük csak mi mindent tud Livius az 1. században:
V. könyv, 33. "Kétségtelen, hogy az Alpokban lakó törzsek is ugyanilyen eredetűek, köztük a raetusok, akiknek természetét maga a lakóhely vadította el, s származásukra már csak eléggé megromlott hangzású nyelvük emlékeztet."
Na mikor élhetett ez a Paduai származású Montecassinoi szerzetes, aki Liviusnak adja elő magát?
Egy kis szakirodalom Tacitusról...
Adamik Tamás: Római irodalom az ezüstkorban.
"Einhard, Nagy Károly életrajzírója ismeri a GERMANIÁ-t és a HISTORIAE-t..."
A sosemvolt Nagykaresz 13. századi "életrajzírója" ismeri Poggio (15. sz.) Germániáját...
Ügyes!
Mint tudjuk van VIII. századi Getika. Akkor miért ne lehetne az az Orosius egybekötött akár 14-15. századi? Mátyásnak elsütötték a humanisták régiségként...
1636-ban egy Ammianus kiadásban találta a jezsuita Jakob Sirmond. Két történelmi részlet. A kézirat 1764-ben Hágába került, 1824-ben Thomas Philipps birtokába. (London) Itt felfedezte Pertz. 1887 óta Berlinben van.
Az első részlet 293-337-e történet, a második 474-526
Eleinte egy szerző munkájára később különböző szerzőkre gyanakodtak. (Martin Schanz, 1914)
Elég vicces, hogy feltételezi a Lexikoníró, hogy az első rész forrása AMMIANUS! De ez nekem tetszik...
Egyébként IX. századi a drága.(Berolinensis 1885) Aztán azért közben született egy XII. századi vatikáni is...
Vaticano-Palatinus lat. 927.
Schanz-Hosius Lex. IV/2 43-55. old:
Kiadó, Luetjohann és Leo, Lyon 1552 (Milyen véletlen...)
Meglehetősen sok kézirat létezik. Luetjohann négy osztályba sorolta őket,
Első osztály Matritensis Ee 102, X/XI sz. II. oszt. Parisinus 9551 XII/XIII. sz. stb.
A VIII. századi Getikához képest ez egy Beaujolais primőr!
MS in Latin on vellum, Leon?, North Spain, 2nd half of 12th c., 132 ff. (complete), 24x17 cm, single column, (20x12 cm), 32-33 lines in Romanesque book script, headings and initial letter on every line in red, 2-line initials in red, 10 large decorated initials in ropework or leafy pattern in colours, 2 large historiated initials in colours.
Binding: France, 17th c. red velvet over wooden boards, sewn on 5 bands.
Provenance: 1. Balthazard de Villars (1557-1627); 2. Lord Mostyn, (until 1920); 3. Sotheby's 13.7.1920:108; 4. Edmund Hunt Dring, Surrey (1920-1928); 5. Edmund Maxwell Dring, Surrey (1928-1989); 6. Quaritch, London.
Commentary: The MS contains the complete works of Sidonius, i.e. all the poems (24 Carmina), and the 147 letters, which is rare. There are 4 major text families, which derive from a lost archetype of the 8th c. The earliest surviving MSS are of the 10th c. In private hands, Sidonius is only recorded in The Schřyen Collection, MS 1650/2 of the 10th c., MS 1650/1 of the 11th c. and MS 246 of the 12th c.
Még napoljuk el a kérdést, hiszen a Római irodalom a késő császárkorban, nekem elégséges;
Sidonius Apollinaris a Nyugat-római Birodalom utolsó alkotója - költője és prózairója - a szó szoros értelmében.
Élete a szokásos, a művelt Galliában megszületve (előkelő keresztény családban) alapos római és görög nevelésben részesült. Később francia-spanyol nevelésben is részesül.(A spanyolfal mögött franciakulccsal verték...)
Véletlenül egy későbbi római császár leányát veszi feleségül. Ebből előnye és hátránya is származik. 40 éves korában püspökké választották.
52 évesen hal meg. Lehet, hogy volt ilyen nevű személy!
Sidonius Apollinaris a költő
"469-ben jelentette meg verseinek gyűjteményes kötetét, amely 24 költeményt tartalmazott..."
Vajon mire irhatta, hogyan "jelentette meg", hány példányban, volt e dedikálás, kötelező példányok a könyvtáraknak? Szerintem már nem válaszolja meg senki...
Ezután rögvest papnak állt, mint fentebb láttuk egy év múlva már püspök... (Mint a kis Piccolominink...)
Sidonius költészetében - az ausoniusi hagyományt folytatva - szépen megfér egymás mellett a görög-római mitológia és a kereszténység...
Sidonius Apollinaris, a levélíró. 146 levele maradt. Az 1. könyvét külön PUBLIKÁLTA verseskönyvével egyidőben 469-ben.
477-ben gyűjteményes KIADÁS.
Levelei nem igazi levelek... hanem az antik levélműfaj azon ágához tartoznak, amelyet az ifjabb Plinius "diligentius scriptae litterae"-nek minősít.
Sajnálom, de nálam ezzel itt vége! Hiszek a filológusoknak, hogy ismerte ELŐDJE működését.
Frankokról és vizigótokról kortársként ír Attila idejében.
Sidonius:
Medieval Sourcebook:
Letters of Sidonius
(Caius) Sollius Apollinaris (Modestus) SIDONIUS, , c.431-c.489, was a Roman Aristocrat living in Gaul at the time of its transformation from a province of the Roman Empire to the property of Frankish Kings. His letters are among the prime documents of the period. The two letters here illustrate aspects of that experience. The first is an account of the possibility of an idyllic country life for the Gallo-Roman aristocracy of the fifth century: the Roman Empire ended, but not, immediately, the lifestyle. The second is a description of a Germanic King, in this case Theodoric II, King of the Visigoths 453-66 [note: not the same as the Ostrogothic Theodoric!]. We see here the ways in which the Gallo-Roman aristocracy began to accommodate itself to the new military powers.
Book II: Letter IX
To His friend Donidius AD 461-7
To your question why, having got as far as Nimes, I still leave your hospitality expectant, I reply by giving the reason for my delayed return. I will even dilate upon the causes of my dilatoriness, for I know that what I enjoy is your enjoyment too. The fact is, I have passed the most delightful time in the most beautiful country in the company of Tonantius Ferreolus and Apollinaris, the most charming hosts in the world. Their estates march together; their houses are not far apart; and the extent of intervening ground is just too far for a walk and just too short to make the ride worthwhile. The hills above the houses are under vines and olives; they might be Nysa and Aracynthus, famed in song. The view from one villa is over a wide flat country, that from the other over woodland; yet different though their situations are, the eye derives equal pleasure from both. But enough of sites ; I have now to unfold the order of my entertainment. Sharp scouts were posted to look out for our return ; and not only were the roads patrolled by men from each estate, but even winding short-cuts and sheep-tracks were under observation, to make it quite impossible for us to elude the friendly ambush. Into this of course we fell, no unwilling prisoners; and our captors instantly made us swear to dismiss every idea of continuing our journey until a whole week had elapsed. And so every morning began with a flattering rivalry between the two hosts, as to which of their kitchens should first smoke for the refreshment of their guest ; nor, though I am personally related to one, and connected through my relatives with the other, could I manage by alternation to give them quite equal measure since age and the dignity of prefectorian rank gave Ferreolus a prior right of invitation over and above his other claims. From the first moment we were hurried from one pleasure to another. Hardly had we entered the vestibule of either house when we saw two opposed pairs of partners in the ball-game repeating each other's movements as they turned in wheeling circles ; in another place one heard the rattle of dice boxes and the shouts of the contending players in yet another, were books in abundance ready to your hand; you might have imagined yourself among the shelves of some grammarian, or the tiers of the Athenaeum, or a bookseller's towering cases. They were so arranged that the devotional works were near the ladies' seats where the master sat were those ennobled by the great style of Roman eloquence. The arrangement had this defect, that it separated certain books by certain authors in manner as near to each other as in matter they are far apart. Thus Augustine writes like Varro, and Horace like Prudentius; but you had to consult them on different sides of the room. Turranius Rufinus' interpretation of Adamantius Origenl was eagerly examined by the readers of theology among us; according to our several points of view, we had different reasons to give for the censure of this Father by certain of the clergy as too trenchant a controversialist and best avoided by the prudent; but the translation is so literal and yet renders the spirit of the work so well, that neither Apuleius' version of Plato's Phaedo, nor Cicero's of the Ctesiphon of Demosthenes is more admirably adapted to the use and rule of our Latin tongue. While we were engaged 6 in these discussions as fancy prompted each, appears an envoy from the cook to warn us that the moment of bodily refreshment is at hand. And in fact the fifth hour had just elapsed, proving that the man was punctual, had properly marked the advance of the hours upon the water-clock . The dinner was short, but abundant, served in the fashion affected in senatorial houses where inveterate usage prescribes numerous courses on very few dishes, though to afford variety, roast alternated with stew. Amusing and instructive anecdotes accompanied our potations; wit went with the one sort, and learning with the other. To be brief, we were entertained with decorum, refinement, and good cheer. After dinner, if we were at Vorocingus (the name of one estate) we walked over to our quarters and our own belongings. If at Prusianum, as the other is called, [the young] Tonantius and his brothers turned out of their beds for us because we could not be always dragging our gear about: I they are surely the elect among the nobles of our own age. The siesta over, we took a short ride to sharpen our jaded appetites for supper. Both of our hosts had baths in their houses, but in neither did they happen to be available; so I set my own servants to work in the rare sober interludes which the convivial bowl, too often filled, allowed their sodden brains. I made them dig a pit at their best speed either near a spring or by the river; into this a heap of red-hot stones was thrown, and the glowing cavity then covered over with an arched roof of wattled hazel. This still left interstices, and to exclude the light and keep in the steam given off when water was thrown on the hot stones, we laid coverings of Cilician goats' hair over all. In these vapour-baths we passed whole hours with lively talk and repartee; all the time the cloud of hissing steam enveloping us induced the healthiest perspiration.
When we bad perspired enough, we were bathed in hot water; the treatment removed the feeling of repletion, but left us languid ; we therefore finished off with a bracing douche from fountain, well or river. For the river Gardon runs between the two properties except in time of flood, when the stream is swollen and clouded with melted snow, it looks red through its tawny gravels, and flows still and pellucid over its pebbly bed, io teeming none the less with the most delicate fish. I could tell you of suppers fit for a king ; it is not my sense of shame, but simply want of space which sets a limit to my revelations. You would have a great story if I turned the page and continued on the other side; but I am always ashamed to disfigure the back of a letter with an inky pen. Besides, I am on the point of leaving here, and hope, by Christ's grace, that we shall meet very shortly ; the story of our friends' banquets will be better told at my own table or yours-provided only that a good week's interval first elapses to restore me the healthy appetite I long for. There is nothing like thin living to give tone to a system disordered by excess. Farewell.
BOOK I, Letter II
To [his brother-in-law] Agricola AD. 454 (?)
You have often begged a description of Theodoric the Gothic king, whose gentle breeding fame commends to every nation; you want him in his quantity and quality, in his person, and the manner of his existence. I gladly accede, as far as the limits of my page allow, and highly approve so fine and ingenuous a curiosity.
Well, he is a man worth knowing, even by those who cannot enjoy his close acquaintance, so happily have Providence and Nature joined to endow him with the perfect gifts of fortune; his way of life is such that not even the envy which lies in wait for kings can rob him of his proper praise. And first as to his person. He is well set up, in height above the average man, but below the giant. His head is round, with curled hair retreating somewhat from brow to crown. His nervous neck is free from disfiguring knots. The eyebrows are bushy and arched; when the lids droop, the lashes reach almost half-way down the cheeks. The upper ears are buried under overlying locks, after the fashion of his race. The nose is finely aquiline; the lips are thin and not enlarged by undue distension of the mouth. Every day the hair springing from his nostrils is cut back; that on the face springs thick from the hollow of the temples, but the razor has not yet come upon his cheek, and his barber is assiduous in eradicating the rich growth on the lower part of the face.2 Chin, throat, and neck are full, but not fat, and all of fair complexion ; seen close, their colour is fresh as that of youth; they often flush, but from modesty, and not from anger. His shoulders are smooth, the upper- and forearms strong and hard ; hands broad, breast prominent; waist receding. The spine dividing the broad expanse of back does not project, and you can see the springing of the ribs ; the sides swell with salient muscle, the well-girt flanks are full of vigour. His thighs are like hard horn ; the knee-joints firm and masculine; the knees themselves the comeliest and least wrinkled in the world. A full ankle supports the leg, and the foot is small to bear such mighty limbs.
Now for the routine of his public life. Before daybreak he goes with a very small suite to attend the service of his priests. He prays with assiduity, but, if I may speak in confidence, one may suspect more of habit than conviction in this piety. Administrative duties of the kingdom take up the rest of the morning. Armed nobles stand about the royal seat; the mass of guards in their garb of skins are admitted that they may be within call, but kept at the threshold for quiet's sake; only a murmur of them comes in from their post at the doors, between the curtain and the outer barrier.1 And now the foreign envoys are introduced. The king hears them out, and says little ; if a thing needs more discussion he puts it off, but accelerates matters ripe for dispatch. The second hour arrives ; he rises from the throne to inspect his treasure-chamber or stable. If the chase is the order of the day, he joins it, but never carries his bow at his side, considering this derogatory to royal state. When a bird or beast is marked for him, or happens to cross his path, he puts his hand behind his back and takes the bow from a page with the string all hanging loose; for as he deems it a boy's trick to bear it in a quiver, so he holds it effeminate to receive the weapon ready strung. When it is given him, he sometimes holds it in both hands and bends the extremities towards each other ; at others he sets it, knot-end downward, against his lifted heel, and runs his finger up the slack and wavering string. After that, he takes his arrows, adjusts, and lets fly. He will ask you beforehand what you would like him to transfix ; you choose, and be hits. If there is a miss through either's error, your vision will mostly be at fault, and not the archer's skill. On ordinary days, his table resembles that of a private person. The board does not groan beneath a mass of dull and unpolished silver set on by panting servitors; the weight lies rather in the conversation than in the plate ; there is either sensible talk or none. The hangings and draperies used on these occasions are sometimes of purple silk, sometimes only of linen; art, not costliness, commends the fare, as spotlessness rather than bulk the silver. Toasts are few, and you will oftener see a thirsty guest impatient, than a full one refusing cup or bowl. In short, you will find elegance of Greece, good cheer of Gaul, Italian nimbleness, the state of public banquets with the attentive service of a private table, and everywhere the discipline of a king's house. What need for me to describe the pomp of his feast days ? No man is so unknown as not to know of them. But to my theme again. The siesta after7 dinner is always slight, and sometimes intermitted. When inclined for the board-game, he is quick to gather up the dice, examines them with care, shakes the box with expert hand, throws rapidly, humorously apostrophizes them, and patiently waits the issue. Silent at a good throw, he makes merry over a bad, annoyed by neither fortune, and always the philosopher. He is too proud to ask or to refuse a revenge; he disdains to avail himself of one if offered; and if it is opposed will quietly go on playing. You effect recovery of your men without obstruction on his side; he recovers his without collusion upon yours. You see the strategist when be moves the pieces ; his one thought is victory. Yet at play he puts off a little of his kingly rigour, inciting all to good fellowship and the freedom of the game: I think he is afraid of being feared. Vexation in the man whom he beats delights him; he will never believe that his opponents have not let him win unless their annoyance proves him really victor. You would be surprised how often the pleasure born of these little happenings may favour the march of great affairs. Petitions that some wrecked influence had left derelict come unexpectedly to port; I myself am gladly beaten by him when I have a favour to ask, since the loss of my game may mean the gaining of my cause. About the ninth hour, the burden of government begins again. Back come the importunates, back the ushers to remove them ; on all sides buzz the voices of petitioners, a sound which lasts till evening, and does not diminish till interrupted by the royal repast ; even then they only disperse to attend their various patrons among the courtiers, and are astir till bedtime. Sometimes, though this is rare, supper is enlivened by sallies of mimes, but no guest is ever exposed to the wound of a biting tongue. Withal there is no noise of hydraulic organ, or choir with its conductor intoning a set piece ; you will hear no players of lyre or flute, no master of the music, no girls with cithara or tabor; the king cares for no strains but those which no less charm the mind with virtue than the ear with melody. When he rises to withdraw, the treasury watch begins its vigil; armed sentries stand on guard during the first hours of slumber. But I am wandering from my subject. I never promised awhole chapter on the kingdom, but a few words about the king. I must stay my pen ; you asked for nothing more than one or two facts about the person and the tastes of Theodoric; and my own aim was to write a letter, not a history. Farewell.
From, Sidonius, The Letters of Sidonius, trans. O.M. Dalton, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1915), two vols.
